1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 4th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )   (np)       Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  Colleen Johnson   )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  
 21  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 22  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 23  Sue Freeborn     )
 24  Maureen Smith    )   (np)
 25  Lynette D'Souza  )    (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np)      Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )
 19  Erin Tully       )   (np)
 20  
 21  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 22  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 23  Melissa Panjer   )
 24  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 BENJAMIN WAYNE POUGET, Resumed: 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 8 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 118 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 132 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 152 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 197 11 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 201 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 205 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-313 "Stan Thompson" Drawing, September 20/'95 4 marked by witness Mr. Ben Pouget 11 5 P-314 Three pages of Mr. Ben Pouget's DayTimer 6 September 04/'95-October 15/'95 15 7 P-315 DVD September '95 First Nations 8 Investigation Team Video Footage 2 of 2 9 Ipperwash Inquiry 25 10 P-316 Two original videotapes First Nation 11 Investigation Team Video Footage 12 (September '95) 1 of 2, Ipperwash Inquiry 13 V2 for SIU (Beach House) St. John 14 Ambulance, OPP Van; First Nation 15 Investigation Team Video Footage (September 16 '95) 2 of 2, Ipperwash Inquiry, V1, OPP 17 van fuelled at 15:42 on September 04/'95 18 We shot this scene at or about 07:42 p.m. 19 Sat. September 09/'95; houses scene shot 20 (afternoon) Sat. September 09/'95, 21 ambulance scene shot afternoon Sat. 22 September 09/'95; out in the bush September 23 13/'95 41 24 P-317 Document 3000380 - 019/042 to 042/042 Mr. 25 Ben Pouget's notes and maps. 60

1 EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-318 Five drawings made by Mr. Ben 4 Pouget 65 5 P-319 Notes of Mr. Ben Pouget September 6 04-October 27/'95, 55 pages 194 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:36 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Justice Linden presiding. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning, everyone. 9 10 BENJAMIN WAYNE POUGET, Resumed: 11 12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Sorry that we started a few minutes 14 late, but we needed to make some copies of some documents 15 and, for the benefit of My Friends, we've handed out this 16 morning a fifty-five (55) page -- actually it's fifty-six 17 (56) pages with the cover page, set of documents that 18 were notes made by Mr. Pouget that we'll talk about in a 19 few minutes, but were made some time in 1995. 20 Now, Mr. Pouget on Friday when we stopped, 21 we had reached September 8th, and your return to the Army 22 Camp on September 8th. And can you just tell us, 23 generally, what you did on September 8th, after you 24 returned to the Army Camp from Toronto and Sarnia? 25 A: I would have arrived at the Army camp

1 around -- probably around noon, 12:30, one o'clock. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: In the afternoon on the 8th. 4 Q: And what did you do on the 8th? 5 A: I first, then, would have talked to 6 Mike Cloud and then I would have went down to the 7 encampment inside the Park. 8 Q: Now, do you remember going down to 9 the encampment inside the Park? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And when you went down on September 12 8th, was there a -- did you go outside of the Park onto 13 the sandy parking lot to the west of the -- 14 A: Yes, there was a barricade on the 15 road. 16 Q: And, there was a barricade on East 17 Parkway Drive? 18 A: Yes, on both sides. 19 Q: When you -- 20 A: Blocking -- blocking the road. 21 Q: And when you say, "on both sides," 22 was there a barricade on East Parkway Drive and on Army 23 Camp Road? 24 A: Yes, there was. 25 Q: And behind you is a copy of

1 Exhibit 23, the Stan Thompson drawing, and can you just 2 point out, if you can -- 3 A: Do you want me to mark it or just 4 show -- 5 Q: Sure. where -- if -- if -- if the 6 location is on this exhibit, where the barricades were on 7 September 8th when you arrived? 8 A: It would have been about -- right 9 about here and here. 10 Q: And could you mark beside the first 11 one a number "1" and on the second one a number "2"? And 12 number 1 is a line drawn across East Parkway Drive to the 13 west of the sandy parking lot and number 2 is across Army 14 Camp Road to the south, approximately, of the sandy 15 parking lot. 16 And was -- were those -- do you recall 17 when those barricades were removed from East Parkway 18 Drive and Army Camp Road? 19 A: I believe they might have been even 20 moved that night or on September 9th. 21 Q: And on September 9th, was there a 22 barricade erected on the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And could you draw a line on Exhibit 25 23 and could you put the number "3" beside that, Mr.

1 Pouget? 2 And perhaps, Commissioner, we could mark 3 this drawing as the next exhibit? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-313, Your Honour. P- 5 313. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-313: "Stan Thompson" Drawing, 8 September 20/95 marked by 9 witness Mr. Ben Pouget 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And did you participate in moving the 13 barricades back off East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 14 Road? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: And did you observe the -- the 17 removal of the barricades and -- from East Parkway Drive 18 and Army Camp Road? 19 A: Yes, I was present. 20 Q: And do you know who moved the -- the 21 barricades off East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 22 A: It would have been the guys from 23 Oneida and maybe Muncey. 24 Q: There was a group of people who had 25 come from Oneida and Muncey to assist; is that correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And they were the ones who removed 3 the barricades? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you know who -- were you 6 present when the barricade marked, "number 3" was built? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And who built that barricade? 9 A: That would have been the guys from 10 Oneida and the guys from Muncey. 11 Q: And do you recall any of the names of 12 the people from Oneida or Muncey? 13 A: I know Buck Doxtator was there -- or 14 Isaac Doxtator -- Layton Elijah, Layton's boy -- I can't 15 remember his boy, but I know Stefan Ireland, Darryl 16 Ireland, I don't know his name, but his name's 105 -- 17 another guy named, Slave. There was maybe thirty (30) or 18 forty (40) back there. 19 Q: Okay. And at some point the 20 barricade that's marked on -- as number 3 on Exhibit 313, 21 was moved. 22 Do you recall when that barricade was 23 moved out of the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: And --

1 A: That -- that was moved on -- on 2 September 13th, I believe. 3 Q: And your -- referring to your notes 4 and these are the notes from your DayTimer? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And is there a reference on September 7 13th that you're referring to? 8 A: Yes, it says: 9 "Major move -- major move Camp back to 10 -- to see what the media would do." 11 So, we moved it back to the bridge that 12 day. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: I don't know who ordered it, it just 15 -- they ordered it back to the bridge. So everybody did. 16 Q: We were working at 10:30. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I was going to throw up a -- a map of 21 the Park on the screen but the gremlin -- the gremlins 22 have got the machine. It was working at 10:30, 23 Commissioner, but... 24 Can you tell us when the barricade was 25 moved, where was the barricade moved to?

1 A: It was moved on September 13th, 2 reading in one (1) of my other books, but not the book 3 that I made these notes from, it said still September 4 13th we'd have moved the barricade at 07:30 hours in the 5 morning on September 13th, back to the bridge. 6 Q: And the bridge is the bridge that 7 runs across the creek inside the Park? 8 A: Yes, right by the water treatment 9 plant. 10 Q: And was it on the east or the west 11 side of the bridge? 12 A: It would have been on the water 13 treatment side which probably would have been -- 14 Q: It's the east side, the water 15 treatment side? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And when -- do you recall this 18 happening or do you have to -- are you relying on your 19 notes? 20 A: Well, actually I do recall it 21 happening. I'm just relying on my notes to see what time 22 it was. 23 Q: Because what I would like you to do 24 is if you can -- if you need -- if you remember, I would 25 like you to just tell us what you remember and if you

1 need to refer to your notes to refresh your memory, then 2 make sure you let us know that you're doing that. 3 A: Actually I haven't seen these in nine 4 (9) years. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, perhaps what 6 we'll do is mark as the next exhibit, the three (3) pages 7 of notes, Commissioner, from Mr. Pouget's DayTimer, and 8 you'll find that on the inside of your binder. 9 And it start's on September 4th and runs 10 through to October 15th this extract in 1995. And 11 perhaps we could mark that P-314. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-314, Your honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-314: Three pages of Mr. Ben 15 Pouget's DayTimer September 16 04/'95-October 15/'95 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And the notes that -- the second set 20 of notes that you're referring to that we handed out this 21 morning, Mr. Pouget, the top page is a copy of the first 22 page of Exhibit 314 from your daytime. 23 And then the next fifty-five (55) pages 24 are handwritten notes that appear to have come from a 25 three (3) ring -- or a binder that had rings at the top.

1 And can you tell me when you made these 2 notes if you can remember? And what -- and how they were 3 made? 4 A: These notes were made from another 5 notebook that I have no idea where it -- where it is. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And I have a lot of stuff in these 8 notes but it's not the notebook that I was hoping it was 9 to be. 10 Q: And the -- this notebook -- the pages 11 are numbered from 1 to 55. I understand that you put 12 those numbers on after -- some time after the actual 13 notes were made? 14 A: Yes. When I handed it over to Geoff 15 House (phonetic) and Colin Brown wanted me to -- to 16 number them, so then he made these notes. 17 Q: And this was -- the notebook that 18 these fifty-five (55) pages came from, is a notebook that 19 would flip over, you could flip to any page? Because -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Is that correct? And I note that the 22 -- the pages are not in any particular order; they'll go 23 from -- they -- the first note is October 11th and then 24 at page 7 is September 4th and then at page 12, for 25 example, September 13th.

1 And were the notes made or dated on any 2 particular order, or you simply opened the book and -- 3 A: Well, I would have just opened it up 4 and started writing. But I know that I had another 5 notebook where I would have made these notes from. 6 Q: So, the book -- the pages that are in 7 front of you, were made from another notebook -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- after you had made the original 10 notes in the -- the first notebook? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that notebook, you don't have? 13 A: I don't know where it's at. 14 Q: And the -- after September 8th, can 15 you tell us generally what you did, Mr. Pouget? 16 A: After September 8th, I would have 17 talked to Buck and -- or Isaac Doxtator and Layton 18 Elijah. Layton Elijah was head of security, and -- 19 Q: And what did you understand Layton 20 Elijah's duties to be? 21 A: He was to -- there was a lot of us, 22 so he was in charge of all of us. 23 Q: And -- but when you say he was "in 24 charge of all of us", Mr. Pouget, why was -- what was he 25 -- what was the task you were all supposed to be doing

1 that he was in charge of? 2 A: Well, I know there was no drinking, 3 no drugs, no weapons of any kind. 4 Q: And was he to make sure and the group 5 that you were with, to make sure that that was observed? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when did Mr. Layton Elijah arrive 8 at the Army Camp and the Provincial Park, do you know? 9 A: He must have arrived on the 8th 10 sometime also. I'm not 100 percent sure. I don't know 11 if we arrived at the same time or right around the same 12 time. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But he was down in the Park before I 15 was. 16 Q: He was -- so, he was -- he was in -- 17 at the Park when you arrived? 18 A: Yes, when I arrived he was -- we were 19 at 1 and 2 and they were -- they were standing right on 20 the road when -- 21 Q: When you arrived, so he was outside 22 the Park at the -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- barricades on the high -- 25 A: They were being put up right then.

1 Q: They were being put up when you 2 arrived? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then they were moved back the 5 next day? 6 A: The next day or that night some time. 7 Q: Yeah. And -- so the barricade on the 8 road -- East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road was there, 9 from your understanding, for no more than a day? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, what did you do on September 12 9th, 10th? Can you generally tell us what you did in 13 this period from September 8th to September 13th? 14 A: I was talking to a lot of my friends 15 and some people I just met and what happened down in the 16 Park -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- and we were -- some spent shells 19 were already picked up, some were being picked up. I was 20 present at a few of them that were picked up. We were 21 just gathering -- just gathering evidence. 22 Q: And did you, at some point, attend 23 with someone who was taking -- using a video camera? 24 A: Yes, Ted Harper. 25 Q: And Ted Harper was a -- the friend

1 who is a relative of your brother's wife? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And he came down from Toronto with 4 you to Sarnia and then to the Army Camp and the Park on 5 September 8th? 6 A: Yes, my brother, Ted Harper, myself 7 and another guy. I don't know who he is. 8 Q: And when did Mr. Harper start making 9 -- taking -- making a video? 10 A: We would have started as soon as we 11 got there. 12 Q: And do you know how many videos he 13 took? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And do you know where all the videos 16 are? 17 A: About 95, 98 percent of them, anyway. 18 Q: And we've got two (2) videos that are 19 in front of you, copies of videos, and we have two (2) 20 other videos that we received yesterday. The videos that 21 are in front of you, if you could take a look at those 22 for a moment, and there's one (1) that has a tag on it, 23 "number 2." 24 Do you see that on -- just on the cover, 25 Mr. Pouget?

1 A: Yes, V-2? 2 Q: It's -- the typed -- actually, the 3 typed -- on the back you'll see. Turn it over. Wait a 4 second. We've got to make sure they're in the right -- 5 that one came out -- 6 A: This one -- this -- this one's over 7 here. 8 Q: Okay. And if you could take the one 9 on your left and you'll see on the outside there's a 10 typed label. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what does that label say? 13 A: It says: 14 "OPP van fuelled at... [It looks like} 15 15:42 on September 4th, 1995." 16 Q: Okay. Turn it over for a minute; 17 there's another label. What's that one say? 18 A: "First Nations Investigation Team 19 Video Footage September 1995, 2 of 2, 20 Ipperwash Inquiry." 21 Q: And on the -- the box, there's a 22 handwritten note that says, "V something." 23 A: V-1. 24 Q: That's V-1? Okay. 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: So, that's -- number 2 is V-1 and 2 then if you -- could take you back to the other video for 3 a second and it's got a label on and the label that 4 you're looking at was a label put on by our office and 5 that one says, "1 of 2?" 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that's also got on it in 8 handwriting, "V-2?" 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Exhibit -- the one that Mr. 11 Pouget has now, Commissioner, was marked Exhibit 277. 12 Now, the handwriting, Mr. Pouget on the 13 label for -- 14 A: It's not my handwriting. 15 Q: -- on the -- not on that label, but 16 on the actual videotape -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- the handwriting on that label is 19 your handwriting? 20 A: Yes, it's all my handwriting. 21 Q: And the -- the -- the label at the 22 end, as well? 23 A: Yes, that's my handwriting, also. 24 Q: And the handwriting on the large 25 label on the black videotape says:

1 "OPP Van (Gassed up September 4/95, St. 2 John Ambulance (both) houses (police 3 say we broke into) [quote] 'not true' 4 [close quote] September 9th/95." 5 Have I read that correctly? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do I take it that this particular 8 video was taken on September 9th, 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the -- do you want to slip it 11 back in, it's out and then on the outside it says: 12 "For SIU (Beach houses) St. John's 13 Ambulance OPP Van." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And is that your handwriting? 16 A: Yes, it is. 17 Q: Then, the second video, the label 18 says -- the large label is -- I read it says: 19 "Time 06:50 a.m. September 13/95. This 20 is where we found the hard computer 21 disk out in the bush plus booze plus 22 inside St. John's ambulance and this is 23 where we saw unopened bottle of booze." 24 Now, is that label on -- that's the label 25 on the inside?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Let me just... Then there's a label 3 on that one on the outside as well. And is the label on 4 the outside your handwriting, Mr. Pouget? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And it says: 7 "OPP Van fuelled at 5:42 on September 8 11/95." 9 Is that what that says? 10 A: It might be 5:42 or 15:42. 11 Q: Okay. 12 "We shot the scene September 11 --" 13 Is that what the September 11th refers to? 14 "We shot the scene September 11th/95 at 15 or about 7:42 p.m." 16 And then there's a reference: 17 "Saturday, September 9/95, Houses 18 scene shot afternoon Saturday, 19 September 9, '95, ambulance scene shot 20 Saturday, September 9, '95 afternoon." 21 A: Yes. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we've 23 seen the Exhibit 277 but perhaps what we'll do is we'll 24 run the second video and perhaps we could just assign it 25 a number, it'll be 315.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, P-315. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-315: DVD September '95 First 4 Nations Investigation Team 5 Video Footage 2 of 2 6 Ipperwash Inquiry 7 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It needed a rest, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Approximately 14 how long is this video? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- this video is 16 approximately forty (40) minutes. 17 THE WITNESS: Damn, forty (40) minutes. 18 19 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 22 Q: Now this is -- shows September 13th, 23 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what were you doing on September

1 13th, 1995? 2 A: I think we would have been going out 3 in the bush at 06:50. 4 Q: And what were you -- when you say you 5 were going out in the bush, Mr. Pouget, where were you 6 going in the bush? 7 A: We were going directly across the 8 A-frame, which is here. 9 Q: You're pointing at Exhibit 314 and on 10 the west side of Army Camp Road on the south -- south of 11 East Parkway Drive. There is an Exhibit 313, two (2) 12 buildings shown on -- in that lot. 13 Those two (2) buildings are now gone? 14 A: Yes. They're gone. We'd be going 15 somewhere around over here somewhere. 16 Q: So that on that -- that particular 17 lot, there were bushes to the west and trees to the west 18 and to the south of those -- the buildings that we see in 19 Exhibit 313? 20 A: Yes. It would be approximately two 21 hundred (200) metres from here to about here. 22 Q: Two hundred (200) metres to -- 23 A: From -- from the Park -- or the road 24 here. 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: To where we were going in the bush. 2 But we didn't come straight through here. We came -- 3 there's a little fence we came -- 4 Q: Okay. Mr. Pouget, I need you to pick 5 up this other microphone if you're going to turn away 6 from the microphone. 7 A: Sorry. 8 Q: So that what you did is you -- can 9 you just point out on this particular map Exhibit 313, 10 where you went when you took this photograph -- this 11 video? 12 A: We would have came down -- there's a 13 -- there's a fence, I guess a pathway that goes down into 14 here, then there's a fence -- 15 Q: Move the mike a little closer, Mr. 16 Pouget. 17 A: -- drove over the fence and then over 18 another fence then up the hill and you end up back in 19 here somewhere. 20 Q: And that's in the bush to the south 21 and west of those buildings? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And -- 24 25 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED)

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And, who was with you on that 3 morning? 4 A: Ted Harper. 5 Q: Yes? Anyone else? 6 A: Layton Elijah's son, Dwayne Elijah. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Or it was -- he might have a 9 different last name -- Dwayne -- 10 Q: Anyway, Layton Elijah's son? 11 A: Layton Elijah's son, Dwayne, a guy 12 named Chris John and I think Charles Doxtator or Chucky 13 Cheese. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Or Charles George. 16 Q: And you were following a path back in 17 the bush, is that what you were doing? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 Q: And I take it you observed liquor 23 bottles along this path? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this is a shot of one (1) of

1 those bottles? 2 A: Yes. Right where we're going right 3 now there's a little hill that goes -- that's just 4 starting to go up. 5 Q: And this area has anyone -- this area 6 is accessible by anyone? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you don't know how long those 9 bottles were there? 10 A: Well, I could smell them; I could 11 smell the alcohol, so they weren't there that long. 12 Q: But you -- that's -- you observed 13 that, but that's all you know about how long they were 14 there? 15 A: When I got to this point, I could 16 smell alcohol. 17 18 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 19 20 Q: That was your supposition; that's not 21 something you knew took place on the night of -- on that 22 -- that night you're referring to, September the 6th? 23 A: Well, the reason why we went back 24 there is... 25 Q: We'll get back -- we'll get to that

1 for a moment. 2 A: All right. 3 Q: But the statement that you made, Mr. 4 Pouget, that the police were working on that -- drinking 5 on that night, was simply a supposition that you made? 6 A: We used their map to go back there. 7 Q: I appreciate that and we'll come -- 8 we'll come back to that -- 9 A: All right. 10 Q: -- but that's simply a supposition 11 you made when you made this statement on September 13th; 12 is that correct? 13 A: Yeah. Yes, I guess. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: Do you know what happened to that 19 particular disk -- the floppy disk ? 20 A: I hope we gave it to the SIU. 21 Q: Do you know if you gave it? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: Fine.

1 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: Now, Mr. Pouget, when you're -- when 4 this video is being taken, are -- can you tell us which 5 direction you were going? Are you going from west to 6 east or east to west back in the bush? 7 A: There's -- we went one (1) way and it 8 was going back towards -- towards these buildings here 9 and then there was another way. There was -- because 10 there was another little encampment over here and that 11 was just like blue tarps and -- 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: -- orange tarps. There was blue 14 tarps and orange tarps over here. It looked like there 15 was, like, a canopy during the day, because it was hot. 16 Q: So that -- and we'll get to this in a 17 moment, but do you -- the three (3) areas -- the -- the 18 video was taken walking west from Army Camp Road as well 19 as walking east towards Army Camp Road? 20 A: Yes, there's -- the terrain back 21 there, it's up and down and there's not really too many 22 flat areas, except for that area we were up there was a 23 elevated area. 24 Q: And does this path -- where does the 25 path lead to on the west side?

1 A: On the west side it leads to a house, 2 6767, and it's back aways. 3 Q: So that it runs along the back of the 4 lot that we've seen at the intersection of East Parkway 5 Drive and Army Camp Road -- 6 A: Yes, we'd -- 7 Q: -- west -- if you -- once you're back 8 in the bush, the path runs west towards the cottage -- to 9 the house located at 6767 East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yes, it runs along East Parkway 11 Drive, like, almost parallel. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: So it would run almost in a straight 14 line. 15 Q: And -- and does it end at the house 16 at 6767? 17 A: That part of it does, and then it 18 continues back behind 6767. 19 Q: And when it continues back behind 20 6767, where does it lead to? 21 A: It would have came out at the back of 22 -- there's a parking lot back there, and the St. John 23 Ambulance was parked back there. 24 Q: And is that the Ministry of Natural 25 Resources parking lot?

1 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And does the path, then, continue 3 west of the parking lot? 4 A: Yes, it goes all the way to Kettle 5 Point. 6 Q: The path goes all the way to Kettle 7 Point? 8 A: Well, when you go back in there, 9 there's about four (4) or five (5) paths back there. 10 They're big -- big paths. 11 Q: And the paths -- some of the paths 12 lead past the MNR parking lot all the way to Kettle 13 Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: And then some of the frames that you 19 see of a fence, and is that fence along the paths on 20 either side? 21 A: Well, there's a -- there's a fence. 22 I think this area here is right behind -- right behind 23 these buildings right here. There's a fence that runs 24 right along back in here, kind of like a squared off 25 area.

1 The fence runs like this. There's 2 actually a couple of difference fences back there. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: There's a couple of different fences 5 back there. 6 Q: So that there's a fence that runs 7 along the south side of the lot that's at the 8 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road and 9 there's a fence that runs north and south on the west 10 side of that particular lot? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there are other fences as well 13 back there? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: And the spot that you're at there, on 19 -- this particular were the -- one (1) of your -- do you 20 know who's speaking at that point? 21 A: That might have been Dwayne Chris 22 John (phonetic) and -- or Dwayne Nicholas (phonetic). 23 Q: And is he pointing towards the lot, 24 the open lot, that's at East Parkway -- at the 25 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road?

1 A: No, he's not, I think he's pointing 2 right here at -- right in there. 3 Q: Was he pointing towards the 4 buildings? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And for the record, it is -- 7 on Exhibit 313 it's -- Mr. Pouget was pointing from the 8 location off the left-hand bottom side of Exhibit 313 9 towards the square -- towards the buildings that are 10 shown in Exhibit 313 in the lower left-hand side. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 Q: Now, we see in this particular frame, 15 some -- what appear to be blue and yellow objects and 16 what are those? 17 A: Those are the blue and yellow tarps 18 that look like they were a canopy for the sun, to block 19 off the sun during the day. 20 Q: Well, when you were there -- when you 21 located these tarpaulins, the blue tarpaulin and the 22 yellow tarpaulin, they were on the ground like that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And were they made of canvas or 25 plastic, do you recall?

1 A: Plastic. 2 Q: Thanks. 3 4 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 5 6 Q: And the buildings at the -- you can 7 see in the background of this particular shot are the 8 buildings that are located on Exhibit 313? 9 A: Yes, they are. 10 Q: That were there back in September 11 1995 that are no longer there? 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (VIDEO PLAYING) 15 16 Q: What we see now is the west side of 17 the buildings that are located on -- were located on the 18 lot at the intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp 19 Road? 20 A: Yes, we're right behind them. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 Q: And in the shot that we see now, I 25 take it, you can see East Parkway on the right hand -- or

1 the upper part of the frame leading towards the sandy 2 parking lot? 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 6 7 Q: And in that frame there as of 8 September 13th, the barricade was still at the sandy 9 parking lot? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it was on that day it was moved 12 back? 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 16 17 Q: And that's a shot of the A-frame that 18 we've seen in other photographs that used to be on the 19 20 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 21 22 Q: And that's a shot of the A-frame that 23 we've seen in other photographs, that used to be on the - 24 - on the lot? 25 A: Yes, it is.

1 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: Mr. Pouget, these buildings appear to 4 be abandoned. Do you know whether they were in use back 5 in September of 1995? 6 A: No, they weren't. 7 8 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 Q: The battery was going out on the 11 video, is that why -- 12 A: Yeah, just enough to think -- 13 Q: It changes colour here? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: We had a problem with that. 17 Q: And now you're walking directly 18 towards the intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp 19 Road towards the sandy parking lot; is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 Q: Is that the house at 6767? 25 A: Yes, it is.

1 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: The path leads east of that house 4 towards Army Camp Road though when you locate it? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 8 9 Q: And that shows the scene we've seen 10 before on the video on -- taken on September 13th, 11 leading towards the lot at the intersection of East 12 Parkway and Army Camp Road? 13 A: That's still -- that's still quite a 14 ways away. 15 Q: It's still -- 16 A: Yeah, because they got up to the 17 first fence, there's two (2) fences right in a row -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- and then you still have this -- 20 about -- almost 1,500 metres -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- from the St. John Ambulance to the 23 spot behind the building. 24 Q: Behind the -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- the buildings and the lot at East 2 Parkway and Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 6 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's the end of that 8 particular tape, Commissioner. We -- for the benefit of 9 My Friends, we obtained over the weekend, two (2) more 10 videotapes from Mr. -- Mr. Ross, our -- and his office, 11 that were from Mr. Brown. 12 And as best as we can determine, the two 13 (2) videotapes which we will make available to anyone who 14 would like to see them, has some of the material that's 15 on the two (2) videotapes that have been marked -- the 16 DVDs that have been marked as Exhibits 277 and 315. But 17 there's also some other material, for example, a 18 discussion between Mr. Brown, Mr. Pouget, Mr. Layton 19 Elijah and some members of the SIU. 20 And -- but a good deal of it has the same 21 shots of going through the -- going through the bush. 22 Perhaps what we should do, Commissioner, 23 is mark these two (2) original videotapes that are in 24 front of Mr. -- Mr. Pouget, from which we made Exhibits 25 277 and 315, as the next exhibit. It would be Exhibit --

1 THE REGISTRAR: 316. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 316. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-316: Two original videotapes First 5 Nation Investigation Team 6 Video Footage (September '95) 7 1 of 2, Ipperwash Inquiry V2 8 for SIU (Beach House) St. 9 John Ambulance, OPP Van; 10 First Nation Investigation 11 Team Video Footage (September 12 '95) 2 of 2, Ipperwash 13 Inquiry, V1, OPP van fuelled 14 at 15:42 on September 04/'95 15 We shot this scene at or 16 about 07:42 p.m. 17 Sat. September 09/'95; houses 18 scene shot (afternoon) Sat. 19 September 09/'95, ambulance 20 scene shot afternoon Sat. 21 September 09/'95; out in the 22 bush September 23 13/'95 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:

1 Q: Now, Mr. Pouget, your handwriting's 2 on the labels. Do you know who spliced these -- these 3 videotapes together, who put them together? 4 A: Yes, I do, Ted Harper. 5 Q: Ted Harper did? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he took the video that was -- the 8 video that you took as well as the video someone else 9 took inside the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 10 A: Yes, the second video is the one -- 11 the original tape, that's the one I gave to the Goldi's, 12 John and Joan Goldi, to make a copy for us and it went 13 missing. 14 Q: So you gave the original tape, an 15 original tape of a video to Mr. and Mrs. Goldie? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And when you asked for it back, you 18 didn't get it back? 19 A: It was about two (2) years later. 20 Q: And what did they tell you about it? 21 They said it's gone missing? 22 A: They couldn't find it. 23 Q: We've heard that before, Mr. Pouget. 24 A: I know. 25 Q: But in any event, you never received

1 the videotape back from Mr. and Mrs. Goldi? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Now the -- perhaps we could take a 4 short break? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 6 short break now, thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 8 for fifteen (15) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 11:58 a.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 12:16 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed, please be seated. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 17 Q: Mr. Pouget, could you on, Exhibit 315 18 that we just saw, that was taken on September 13, were 19 you present when a video was also taken that showed an 20 OPP van, as well as the houses? 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: And the -- when was -- do you recall 23 when the video with the OPP van was shot? 24 A: Can I look at my notes? 25 Q: Sure. If you'll look, it's September

1 9th? 2 A: Yes. September 9th. 3 Q: And was that the same day the video 4 was taken of the houses? 5 A: I believe it was. 6 Q: And perhaps if we could just take a 7 moment, the video that -- I'm going to just play a short 8 bit of Exhibit 277 which is the video of -- that we saw 9 before. 10 11 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 Q: Can you tell us where this is -- this 14 particular OPP van was found? 15 A: The only place -- it's kind of hard 16 to explain what we would call it. It's right by the 17 Flint Reef (phonetic) in between the two (2) big dunes. 18 Q: Okay. I'm going to put up on -- a 19 copy of Exhibit P-40. This is a copy of Exhibit P-40 20 which shows on the north, the Army Camp -- I mean, Lake 21 Huron, on the west the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 22 And it's the balance of it shows the Army 23 Camp and can you -- there should be a laser on -- can you 24 just point out where that -- where it was found? 25 A: This is the Flint Reef here --

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- and there's -- we call a pass 3 right in here -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- and then there's some dunes that 6 run right in here and I'd have to say he was right down 7 in here somewhere. 8 Q: So you're pointing to Exhibit P-40 9 and we see the -- there's a part that leads -- a little 10 arc that leads out into the lake below the number, I 11 think it's 80 and immediately to the east of that was the 12 area where the -- the van was found in the dunes? 13 A: I'm still trying to think back, 14 because there's two (2) areas that look like -- but I'm 15 pretty sure that this is the area here. There's also -- 16 it's called, "the marriage patch" in here. 17 Q: Yes, now, you're pointing -- 18 A: But -- but you can drive through 19 there, that was in a spot where you can't drive a -- you 20 need a four (4) wheel drive where that van was to drive. 21 Q: And the -- do you know when that van 22 was put onto the -- in -- in any event, the location it 23 was found in was on the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you know -- do you know when

1 that van was driven onto the Army Camp? 2 A: No, I don't, but I know who put it 3 there, or who says they put it there. 4 Q: We'll come back to that, but -- 5 A: All right. 6 Q: -- but the person who told you they 7 put it there, put it there after the events of September 8 6th? 9 A: Yes. 10 11 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 Q: Is that Mr. Harper? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And you're there with Mr. Harper? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And who else was there? That's okay, 18 but you're there and Mr. Harper? 19 A: Okay. I'm just trying to remember 20 who was driving the ATV's. 21 22 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 Q: That was you? 25 A: That's me; that's what time that is.

1 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: And what's being held up there is a 4 gas bill? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it was a gas bill from August the 7 10th, 1995? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I think the time -- you read out 10 the time, 7:43? 11 A: I believe I did. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 Q: Do you recognize who's in the shot 17 that's with the bill? 18 A: It could be Gabe. 19 Q: Gabe? 20 A: Gabriel Doxtator. 21 Q: Gabriel Doxtator. 22 23 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 24 25 Q: Now, the video of the van, the

1 Exhibit 277, was taken on September 9th. At some point 2 after September 9th, I understand that you, personally, 3 went into the St. John's Ambulance van trailer? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And can tell us what day you went 6 into the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 7 A: Can I look at my notes again? 8 Q: Certainly. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I believe we were there on both days, 13 on the 9th and the 10th. Saturday, September 9th and the 14 10th. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: September 10th, was the Sunday. 17 Q: -- can you -- pardon me? 18 A: September 10th was the Sunday. 19 Q: And can you tell us what you saw when 20 you went into the St. John's Ambulance trailer, and by 21 the "trailer", I'm referring to the trailer with the 22 fifth wheel. 23 A: In the fifth wheel, it was pretty 24 messy because the guys were there before us. And we were 25 -- Ted and I and few other guys, we went back and we were

1 going through the garbage. And in the garbage, in the 2 bottom of the garbage, where there was one (1) full 3 bottle of vodka, Smirnoff, and an empty bottle of 4 Smirnoff, because we just poured the garbage out onto the 5 -- we put out some garbage bags and we poured it all out, 6 right outside the fifth wheel. 7 In the video, the second video, the guys 8 picked up a foolscap and they riffled through it, like, 9 two (2) or three (3) times but they just -- just did 10 this. 11 And on the bottom of those riffles, I 12 picked it up, and I looked at it and that's where these 13 notes came from, because they were on the bottom. 14 Q: Okay, we'll -- 15 A: Reverse side. 16 Q: Okay, we'll just stop for a moment. 17 When you went into the St. John's Ambulance trailer on 18 September 9th or 10th -- 19 A: Both days I was there. 20 Q: Both days? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: The first time you went in, had you 23 seen the video that was -- we watched a few minutes ago, 24 marked Exhibit 315? 25 A: Yes, I seen the video first --

1 Q: Before you went in? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And when you arrived at the St. 4 John's Ambulance trailer, the doors were open? 5 A: Yes, the doors were open. 6 Q: And you don't know how many people 7 had been in and out of the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: And you located some notes that are 10 Inquiry Document 3000380 which appear at Tab 13 of the 11 book in front of you. 12 Now, perhaps, Mr. Pouget, just for -- to 13 help for our assistance, if one looks at Inquiry Document 14 3000380, in that notebook that -- at Tab 13 of the book 15 in front of you -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- the first page is -- right after 18 the tab number is a copy of your notes. Do you want to 19 just go back right to the beginning? 20 A: It says: 21 "St. John's a hundred and twenty-eight 22 (128) minutes -- 23 Q: "St. John's Ambulance command post. 24 We have a hundred and twenty-eight 25 (128) minutes of videotape September

1 7th to September 19, 1995." 2 Those are your notes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you made these notes some time on 5 or after September 19th, 1995? 6 A: Actually, I would have made them 7 after because I see my phone number at the bottom here. 8 Q: Yes, that's what I mean. It was -- 9 A: Yeah, it was after, yes. 10 Q: It was after -- probably after 11 September 19th? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, there's a number of pieces of 14 paper attached and they actually have a fax number, it 15 starts at page 2. You'll see on the right-hand side, 16 page 2, page 3 -- page 2 is a document entitled, 17 "Official CB Ten (10) Code" and on the upper left-hand 18 side there's a number "984." 19 Where did you obtain this piece of paper? 20 A: I don't -- I don't recall obtaining 21 this piece of paper. 22 Q: Okay. What pieces of paper did you 23 find in the command post? Can you identify -- what about 24 the page that's identified on the upper left-hand corner 25 as "985"?

1 A: 985? 2 Q: You'll -- it's the next page. 3 A: Second page? 4 Q: It's the -- 5 A: Yes, this one -- this page? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And all of the pages after it. 8 There's one (1) page missing. There's one (1) page 9 missing. 10 Q: But there are -- starting with the 11 page that has, 12 "OPP-St. John's Ambulance command post 13 left their notes behind morning of 14 September 7/95 at or about 8:15," 15 The -- following that page, which is the 16 third page in this set of documents, the third, the 17 fourth, the fifth, the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, 18 tenth pages were pages you found in the command post? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then the eleventh page looks like 21 a drawing made by you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then there -- the twelfth and 24 thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth pages, again, are these 25 notes that you found in the St. John's Ambulance trailer?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then the balance of -- 3 A: Those are all my notes. 4 Q: -- the document is your notes? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at the last part of this, the 7 last two (2) pages of this particular document, or last 8 three (3) pages, there's one (1) that says, "Chronology 9 of Events, Incident at Ipperwash Provincial Park." Was 10 that a document that had? 11 Do you recognize that document? 12 A: I remember seeing this; I don't know 13 where it came from. 14 Q: Okay. And that's a two (2) page 15 document and then the third -- the last page -- is a 16 document that has the date on the bottom, September/96 17 and it has an OPP insignia with an arrow, do you know 18 where that page came from? Did you have that page? 19 A: Actually, I seen a coffee cup with 20 this emblem on it. 21 Q: But -- fair enough, I'll -- and I'll 22 ask you about that, but this particular page that's in 23 this document was not provided by you? 24 A: No, it was not. 25 Q: And the other -- the last -- the

1 third last and the second last page was not provided by 2 you as well? 3 A: No, it was not. 4 Q: Although -- 5 A: That's my handwriting on there, 6 though. 7 Q: That's your handwriting, "September 8 6th or early September 7th"? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when we go back to starting at 11 the third page, Mr. Pouget, the handwriting "OPP St. 12 John's Ambulance" in the right hand side, that's your 13 handwriting? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And the handwriting that's on -- 16 immediately below it on the bottom right-hand side, is -- 17 that says: "Monday, March 18/96, Queen's Park crowd 18 management control", that's your handwriting? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: And is the circle with the insignia 21 immediately to the left of the "Monday, March 18th, '96", 22 is that your handwriting? 23 A: No, I believe that's Colin Brown's. 24 Q: Colin Brown's? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And on the left-hand side, there's 2 some handwriting about 11:10 p.m. then "Wednesday, 3 September 6th, '95, ERT, TRU, CMC, crowd management 4 control, Ipperwash", is that your handwriting? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: It should have been CMU. 8 Q: Yes. And the handwriting in the 9 middle, where there's a list of names, is that your 10 handwriting? 11 A: No, it's not, that's part of the -- 12 the stuff that I found. 13 Q: And the original of these notes, do 14 you know where the original of the notes that you 15 obtained from the St. John's Ambulance trailer are? 16 A: They would have been handed into the 17 SIU. 18 Q: Okay. And you kept a copy? 19 A: I must have, because I mailed out 20 seven (7) packages. 21 Q: You -- you created seven (7) packages 22 of the notes that you found? 23 A: Notes and all kinds of other stuff. 24 Q: And one (1) of the packages you gave 25 to the SIU?

1 A: I don't know, but they ended up with 2 it. 3 Q: The next -- at the fourth page, is 4 this a drawing drawn by you or was this located in the -- 5 it's a drawing that has East Parkway Drive on the top? 6 A: Yes, this is not mine, this is the 7 police, or whoever made these documents. 8 Q: Okay. These were -- this drawing was 9 with the notes that you found in the -- 10 A: In the fifth -- 11 Q: -- St. John's Ambulance -- 12 A: -- wheel. 13 Q: -- trailer? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: On the next page which would be the 16 fifth page, there's -- in the centre of the page, under 17 "C", there's some handwriting, "September 6/95": that's 18 your handwriting? 19 A: I don't see it. 20 Q: Right -- it's the -- after the map 21 it's a -- you'll see it says: "several vehicles, lighting 22 them up"; do you see that? 23 A: I'm on the wrong page. Oh, yeah. I 24 see it now, at the top? 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: In the centre? Yes, that's my 2 handwriting. 3 Q: And in -- and the balance of these 4 pages, there's a -- September 6/95 in the upper right- 5 hand corner, and that's your handwriting as well? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: And then on the ninth page in, it -- 8 at the top of the page you'll see the fax cover sheet 9 says -- the fax notation says: "27 of 42." Do you have 10 that page? 11 A: Yes, I have it. 12 Q: And you'll see the date September 13 6/95 and then there's printed beside it, "which is really 14 September 7/95" and those words "which is really 15 September 7/95", that's your handwriting? 16 A: Yes, it is. 17 Q: And again, on the page that has 18 "Number 30 of 42"... 19 A: 30 of 42. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: The twelfth page in, in the upper 24 right hand corner, there's "September 6/95", that's your 25 handwriting?

1 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And on the next page, "31 of 42, 3 September 6th, '95"? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then at the bottom of the page 6 that says, at 30 of 42, there's a number that says "5" 7 and a circle; do you know who's handwriting that is? 8 A: It looks like a 7 and a circle. 9 Q: Well, a 7 and a circle on 32 of 42, 10 yes; that appears on a number of -- there's a -- 11 A: Yeah, I -- I believe those are all 12 Colin Brown's. 13 Q: Colin Brown? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Collin Brown is a lawyer? 16 A: Yes, he is. 17 Q: And he was the lawyer acting on the 18 group's behalf back in '95? 19 A: Yes, Tony Ross and Colin Brown. 20 Q: And... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And out of this copy, if Mr. Brown 25 numbered the pages, were you present when the pages were

1 numbered? 2 A: Yes, I was. 3 Q: And did he number the pages from 1 4 through to 9; do you recall? 5 A: I believe he did. 6 Q: Because there appears to be some 7 pages missing; it goes from 1 to 3, to 9, to 4, to 5, 8 to 6, to 7, to 8, but we appear to be missing at least 9 page 1 and -- or perhaps page 1 and 2. Do you know where 10 they might have been? Might have -- 11 A: I don't know. I know there's one (1) 12 missing for sure. 13 Q: And when you say you know there's one 14 (1) missing for sure, Mr. Pouget, can you tell us -- why 15 do you say that? 16 A: Because it was -- it was a, like a -- 17 like a half moon with three X's on it. 18 Q: And it was a drawing, a piece of 19 paper with a half moon drawn it with three (3) X's? 20 A: Yes. What it looked like to us, we 21 were standing right -- right here along the edge of the 22 tarmac, and we put the paper down, we put it down, and it 23 looked like there was three X's, but in different spots, 24 and it looked like they were back behind these areas 25 here. And we went -- that's the only reason we went back

1 there, because we -- we just said, Do you think they 2 could have been back there? So we went over there. 3 Q: So you found a -- you found a piece 4 of foolscap in the St. John's Ambulance trailer; was that 5 piece of foolscap with these other notes that are part of 6 3000380, Inquiry Document Number? 7 A: Yes, it was. 8 Q: And perhaps we should mark this whole 9 group of Inquiry Document Number 3000380 at Tab 13, as 10 the next Exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-317, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-317: Document 3000380 - 019/042 to 14 042/042 Mr. Ben Pouget's 15 notes and maps. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And, that prompted you to go back 19 into the bush, the area that we saw in the video? 20 A: Yes. Layton and I were standing at 21 the edge of the tarmac and we're -- we were looking at it 22 and then we were putting it down, looking at it, putting 23 it down, and we both said it at -- almost at the same 24 time, "You think they were back there?" 25 Q: And --

1 A: And it looked like a map. So he sent 2 the fellows back there. 3 Q: And then you went back with the 4 video? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you say that you were 7 standing with -- I take it you were standing with a 8 woman, you said -- 9 A: No, it was Layton Elijah I was 10 standing with, -- 11 Q: Oh, Layton. 12 A: -- yes. 13 Q: Now, if I could take you for a 14 moment, there's a bundle of drawings that you made, some 15 of which appear in Exhibit 317, but different -- for 16 example, in Exhibit 317, Mr. Pouget, there's a drawing 20 17 at the page that has on the upper right-hand corner, 18 "29 of 42," -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recall when you made that 21 drawing? 22 A: This would have been about -- I -- I 23 was writing stuff down in my other notebook, which I 24 thought was this one but it's not. The guys were telling 25 me where they picked up the spent casings, .223's, 9mm's,

1 9mm's, five (5) 9mm's in one (1) spot, .38, two (2) 9's 2 on the driveway, .223 -- actually this would have been -- 3 because I got the .240's marked and the OPP search team 4 were the ones that picked those up. 5 So it would have been some time right 6 around the 18th of September. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: They have it marked wrong in -- in 9 the book where they picked it up. 10 Because they found a .223 on the grassy 11 knoll and the 40 cal was on a fence post and which they 12 got marked as a .223 and there was another on the fence 13 post. There's a little ditch there and there was a 40 14 cal found there that was the search team picked it up. I 15 was standing there when they did it. 16 Q: If you would just bear with me for a 17 minute, Mr. Pouget. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now you also have in front of you, a 22 group of pages -- five (5) pages that came out of your 23 blue -- 24 A: Yes. And -- and that book -- 25 Q: -- notebook --

1 A: -- they are in order but they're not 2 in order in here. 3 Q: -- and the drawings on the -- that 4 come out of your notebook and unfortunately they're not 5 in colour, does not include this particular drawing? 6 A: Like I said, this could have been in 7 one (1) of my other books and that's one (1) of the books 8 that are missing. 9 Q: And what you're trying to illustrate 10 with this drawing is where things are located and where 11 things were found? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there is a -- on the drawing 14 that's on the screen from P-317, page 29 of 42, you will 15 see that there is drawn -- you'll see there's what 16 appears to be a black item marked "Nick", I take it 17 that's supposed to be the bus? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then there's a -- an item that's 20 marked "Waldo" -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- and I take it that's -- is -- be 23 the car driven by -- 24 A: Waldo -- or Warren George. 25 Q: -- Warren George? And then there's

1 an item "OPP van" and that represents an OPP van? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you weren't there on the evening 4 of September 6th. Someone told you that these vehicles 5 were located at the points you've marked them down on 6 this drawing? 7 A: Yes, they did. 8 Q: And do you recall who? 9 A: Waldo, Nick, Leland, Worm. Everybody 10 that was down there told me what they did and where they 11 picked stuff up and what they remember. 12 Q: And you were trying to record it on 13 this particular drawing and the other drawings that we'll 14 see? 15 A: Actually I was just trying to put it 16 in a circle to see where all the rounds were coming from 17 and see if they were -- just to see where these guys were 18 standing. 19 Q: But the information that you obtained 20 from others, you've put into these particular maps? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And the same map appears at page 34 23 of 42, it appears to be the same map in Exhibit 317 as 24 the one we just looked at; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Then, the next drawing at page 35 of 2 42 is again, a drawing based on what others told you? 3 A: Except for the lead fragments in the 4 .240 cals, because I was present when -- when those -- 5 when I saw those with the SIU and the OPP. 6 Q: Oh, you saw those when you were 7 there, that frag -- 8 A: Yes, yes, because on the day of the 9 investigation the lead and copper fragments were still on 10 the ground and the .240 cals were picked up by the search 11 team. 12 Q: Now, I note that on the drawings that 13 came out of your notebook, this group of five (5), and 14 perhaps we'll simply mark this group of five (5) 15 drawings, a copy of five (5) drawings, as the next 16 exhibit; it would be 318? 17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, P-318, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-318: Five drawings made by Mr. Ben 20 Pouget 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: That there is an addition to this 24 particular... 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: This particular drawing, there's 4 handwriting where it shows the car going into the -- 5 towards the side of the road. 6 "Bullet unknown, handed into SIU inside 7 rear driver's side..." 8 A: Oh, the back tire? 9 Q: "...tire shot out." Now is that your 10 handwriting? 11 A: No, that's -- that's not my 12 handwriting. 13 Q: Do you know whose handwriting that 14 is? I can give you the original, Mr. Pouget. 15 A: I don't recognize it. 16 Q: But that is on the -- the -- these -- 17 Exhibit 318 was taken from the copies of the drawings in 18 your notebook that you gave me the other day. 19 A: Oh, that is my handwriting; that's 20 mine. 21 Q: Pardon? 22 A: That's mine. 23 Q: Okay. Then that's -- this -- this -- 24 on the screen is a photocopy of what was taken from your 25 -- from that notebook and that's your handwriting?

1 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And that note, as well as the note, 3 "40 cal full metal jacket found," also that note is in 4 your handwriting? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And those two (2) notes that don't 7 appear in the Exhibit 317, the equivalent map at page 35 8 of 42; it's map number 4? 9 A: Yes, this was probably one (1) of the 10 -- one (1) of the seven (7) packages that I gave out 11 and -- 12 Q: This being Exhibit 317, the -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: Because I know in the first stages, I 16 mailed out just what -- what we had and then this stuff, 17 the tire, came back later on and the full metal jacket 18 was found in March of '96, Roderick George and myself. 19 Q: In March of '96? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what did you do with that than? 22 A: I -- I believe we handed it into 23 Delia Opekokew. 24 Q: Oh, Delia Opekokew? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Opekokew. 2 A: How -- how do you say it? 3 Q: Opekokew. 4 A: Opekokew, did I say it right? 5 Q: Opekokew. Delia Opekokew. She was 6 acting for Mr. George at the time. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And in Exhibit 317, the next 9 drawing... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: ...has a number "5" on it and you 14 numbered each of these drawings with the number in the 15 upper right-hand corner, or someone did. You'll see in 16 the original -- on the originals there's a note -- 17 there's a circle with a number in it. 18 Is that yours or somebody else put that 19 on? 20 A: I believe that's my handwriting. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Because it's in red ink and I was 23 using red ink in this. 24 Q: And this is a drawing that, again, 25 you made -- do you recall when you made these drawings;

1 they were sometime after the events? 2 A: Yes, they -- I would have take them 3 from my -- from my notes. It would have been -- have to 4 be after October 18th of '95. 5 Q: After '95? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the five (5) drawings in Exhibit 8 318, this is number 5, and it is a drawing of the area, 9 the Park entrance, the area to the south of East Parkway 10 Drive, the area where the Ministry of National -- 11 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot area, and you 12 were trying to draw in the path that ran from the -- the 13 pathways that ran from the MNR parking lot east and west, 14 east towards the Park and the Army Camp and west towards 15 Kettle Point? 16 A: Yes, I went down all them paths. 17 Q: And you've -- there are three (3) 18 circles drawn on this map on the left-hand side that are 19 identified as OPP mini command post and bush area. 20 Are these the three (3) areas that you 21 indicate you saw in this piece of paper that's -- that's 22 gone missing, that had the half moon on it? 23 A: With the Xs, yes. 24 Q: And those are the areas that you -- 25 you visited and we saw when we looked at the video which

1 is marked 315, I believe? 2 A: Yes, the first area would have been 3 the St. John's Ambulance hard disk drive found on 4 September 13th, '95 at 06:50; right there. 5 Q: And the -- can you point out which of 6 these three (3) circles was the circle that had the blue 7 and yellow tarpaulin, plastic tarpaulin? 8 A: Actually, I didn't put that on this 9 map, but that is right in here somewhere. 10 Q: Okay. And the comments that you make 11 on these maps as being the mini command and the -- are 12 simply notes that you made based on what you thought, as 13 opposed to what you knew; is that correct? 14 A: I'd have to say that's correct. 15 Q: And on the right hand side of this 16 drawing number 5, there's a -- some -- the Ministry of 17 Natural Resources parking lot where there are a number of 18 drawing -- would appear to be vehicles drawn in on this - 19 - in the parking lot, Mr. Pouget. 20 What was the source of your information 21 for these drawings? 22 A: It was in my other notes, but I did 23 write them down in here, because I was going through 24 them. Can I review them again? 25 Q: Sure, but were those vehicles, for --

1 are these -- do these represent vehicles? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you see the vehicles located 4 in the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot like -- 5 as you've drawn them? 6 A: I seen -- I seen these -- the two (2) 7 marked with St. John's Ambulances, I seen both of those 8 and the fifth wheel. 9 Q: Okay, so that -- what you saw was 10 what is known as the -- on the left-hand side, there's 11 St. John's Ambulance that's, I take it, the larger 12 depiction is for the -- to be the fifth wheel -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- the trailer? And then on the 15 right-hand side at the bottom towards East Parkway Drive, 16 there are two (2) squares and they represent two (2) St. 17 John's Ambulance trucks or -- 18 A: Vans. 19 Q: -- vans? 20 A: They were vans. 21 Q: Vans similar to the OPP van we saw in 22 the video? 23 A: Yes, they were full size -- full size 24 vans. 25 Q: And then the OPP and TRU indications

1 that 2 you've got on this map; you did not see vehicles parked 3 there? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: And what was the source of your 6 information? How did you decide to put TRU an OPP, on 7 this map, beside those square boxes? 8 A: This house right here, there was two 9 (2) ladies, one (1) Native, I think -- I'm not sure if 10 they're both Native, one was Sherry (phonetic) Cloud and 11 Barb Cloud. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And they were there watering plants 14 or cutting hair, but they were there on September 4th and 15 on the 5th, and they indicated to me what I -- what I 16 drew up here. 17 Q: So they told you what they saw? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you drew it. Now, when you say 20 the OPP command post, you've got a drawing, an arrow to a 21 square, a rectangular item at the top of the -- what 22 purports to be the Park; and did you see a vehicle in 23 that location? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: And the -- what's that -- who told

1 you there was a vehicle there? 2 A: The ladies also said there was police 3 going in and out of that -- out of that command post that 4 they said, that could have been. 5 Q: Well, you don't know if it was a 6 command post. Can you tell us what they told you the -- 7 the vehicle was? 8 A: They said they seen police going in 9 and out of it. 10 Q: But what kind of vehicle? 11 A: It was like a fifth wheel. 12 Q: It was a -- 13 A: They told me it was -- it looked like 14 the St. John Ambulance fifth fuel -- fifth wheel. 15 Q: So that -- it may have been -- it 16 probably was. Mr. Pouget, we know that -- that there was 17 a St. John's Ambulance trailer there, and that was, I 18 anticipate the evidence will be, that was the only 19 trailer such as that in this parking lot. 20 So you -- you personally don't know -- 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: -- you -- you saw the St. John's 23 Ambulance trailer there, that's the only trailer you saw? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then, if I could take you back to

1 page 1 of Exhibit 318, or page -- the next page of 2 Exhibit 317, which is the same drawing of -- a similar 3 drawing. 4 Now, this is again, a drawing of the same 5 area? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: And you've marked: 8 " St. John's Ambulance Command Post, all 9 evidence taken from here." 10 And what you're referring to is, among 11 other things, of the notes that form part of Exhibit 317? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was there anything else taken 14 from there that is being referred to under the rubric, or 15 the word evidence, Mr. Pouget? 16 A: Taken from the fifth wheel? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: There was, I guess it was an ERT 19 computer that I saw. 20 Q: You saw that there was a computer and 21 a hard -- a computer, -- 22 A: The whole computer was taken out of 23 there, -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- and set up in the command centre

1 in, actually it's where Worm lives now, or Stewart 2 George. 3 Q: That was in the maintenance building; 4 no? 5 A: It would have been in the command 6 post, like, I remember seeing the command post in front 7 if it, or a Command, like, for the Army Base. 8 Q: Oh, oh I see, the -- one (1) of the 9 buildings on the, where -- where Stewart George now 10 lives, on the -- on the built-up area of the Army Camp -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- and it had on it -- a sign on that 13 particular building was command post? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: And the computer was set up in there? 16 A: Yes, we set it up. 17 Q: And what did you see on that 18 computer? 19 A: What I saw on that computer, it was 20 at the bottom of the screen was a purple ERT and in one 21 (1) of the, I'm not sure if it was the C drive or the D 22 drive, but there was a globe, it was just -- just looked 23 like a globe, and it had a truck, a white truck, that 24 went all the way around it, anywhere, anytime. 25 Q: Right.

1 A: And that was on there. 2 Q: And that was the computer that was 3 given to the Inquiry? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And, now, did -- there was also -- 6 there was a hard drive, did you -- did that hard drive 7 come from the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 8 A: Yes, it did. 9 Q: And did you see it come out of that 10 trailer? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: You were told by someone it did come 13 out? 14 A: I believe I was told by the person 15 who took it out. 16 Q: And were you present when the 17 computer was taken out of the command trailer? 18 A: No, but I was present when it was 19 coming out of the vehicle and getting set up. 20 Q: Out of the vehicle somebody was 21 driving that had just come back from the MNR parking lot? 22 A: Well, that's where the computer was. 23 I don't know how long it was sitting in the car but I was 24 -- I was definitely in the building when it got set up. 25 Q: And who brought it from -- whose car

1 was it when it came -- when you saw it? 2 A: I believe it was in the Lois Loboast 3 (phonetic) car which was driven by Dave George. 4 Q: And that's the first time you saw it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you see this computer in the St. 7 John's ambulance trailer? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: And the -- on this particular drawing 10 there's a note: 11 "This scene found September 16, '95, CBC 12 news Ms. Gates (phonetic)". 13 Let me just ask the question, these -- 14 this particular area was not found and is not part of the 15 video that we showed this morning? 16 A: No, it's not. 17 Q: And who is Ms. Gates? 18 A: Jennifer Gates is a reporter from CBC 19 News Windsor. And we wanted to bring the news crew in to 20 show the spot that we filmed on September 13th. 21 But in bringing her back there, I 22 stumbled on this -- this scene here which was not too far 23 from the scene that where we -- that's where I wanted to 24 go but I got lost back there. 25 Q: Where you wanted to go was the scene

1 St. John's ambulance hard disk found? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: In that area? 4 A: Yes, that's where I wanted to go. 5 Q: And the scene that you found on 6 September 16th with Ms. Gates was another area where it - 7 - an open area where people -- 8 A: Well, that was -- that was another 9 elevated area; that was higher than the rest of the area 10 back there. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And you could see from that position, 13 you could see straight on through right to the road. 14 Q: And the road being -- 15 A: Army Camp Road. 16 Q: -- Army Camp. Yes? 17 A: And it was actually a pretty good 18 position. 19 Q: And what did you see at that 20 location? 21 A: About a mound of beer, about maybe a 22 foot and a half high and circumference about 4 feet -- 3 23 1/2 feet around. 24 Q: So you saw some empty beer bottles? 25 A: Cans stacked up.

1 Q: And the scene that you have indicated 2 as this scene found Sunday, October 15, '95 is circled on 3 the immediate left, that was -- you went there on October 4 15th, 1995? 5 A: Yes, every day I was out there. I 6 was looking for -- going down these paths, going 7 everywhere from Kettle Point, walking everywhere back 8 there and we were looking for another high point back in 9 the bush. 10 And this area was right at the end of 11 Matheson Drive where it comes out and there's a little 12 fence that stands about -- about 2 feet high and it goes 13 right underneath the dune and you can actually -- I could 14 right now, go right underneath it. 15 And this elevated area just about maybe -- 16 it's just inside the bush. 17 Q: And what -- when you were there on 18 October 15th, 1995; what could you see from that elevated 19 area? 20 A: That was -- there was more beer cans 21 in that spot about the same as I saw on September 16th. 22 Q: And but what could you see? Could 23 you see -- you said you could see Army Camp Road 24 without -- 25 A: Yes, you could see Army Camp Road and

1 Matheson Drive from that -- from that particular spot. 2 It was also an elevated area. 3 Q: And that is just -- just to the north 4 or south of where you found both of these scenes -- the 5 September 16th and October 15th, there's a campground 6 just to the south of that area; is there not, a fairly 7 large campground? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: With a large number of trailers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And how close is the campground to 12 this area? 13 A: I'd have to say about anywhere's 14 between three hundred (300) and 400 metres. 15 Q: So it's reasonably close? 16 A: Pretty close. 17 Q: And you don't know how the beer 18 bottles that you saw at both these locations got there? 19 A: Well, when -- when I got to the ones 20 on September 16th I could still smell the beer. 21 Q: But you don't know how they got 22 there? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: And the same with respect to the -- 25 the beer cans, I guess there I said, "bottles," I'm

1 dating myself, it should be beer cans that you saw on 2 October 15th; you don't know how they got there? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: Now, on... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: September 9th or 10th, do you recall 9 which day you took the -- the notes that form part of 10 Exhibit P-317, Mr. Pouget? 11 Did you do it the first day or the second 12 day? 13 A: P-317? 14 Q: That's the notes at Tab 13. Do you 15 know which day you took them? 16 A: Tab 13, which page is that on? 17 Q: The notes that -- if you go to the 18 third page, you'll see the notes that came out of the St. 19 John's Ambulance trailer. I'm just trying to identify, 20 did you take them the first day or the second day, the 21 notes -- 22 A: We would have got them on the 9th. 23 Q: On the 9th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Then at Tab 2, there's a document,

1 it's 200 -- Inquiry Document 2003822 and these are again, 2 are some notes made by you? 3 A: What page? 4 Q: At Tab -- Tab 2 of the binder, Mr. -- 5 if you go back... 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: In the black binder that you've got 8 in front of you, Mr. Pouget, if you go back to Tab 2, 9 right at the beginning. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Now, these are some notes made by you 12 as well? 13 A: Yes, that's my handwriting. 14 Q: And these notes were made -- at least 15 some of them were made in March of 1996; is that correct, 16 if you look at page 2? 17 A: Yes, I -- I remember doing this, this 18 was after the OPSEU thing at Queen's Park. 19 Q: So, you made these particular notes 20 after the OPSEU -- there was a -- a rally at Queen's Park 21 by OPSEU which resulted in a confrontation with the OPP? 22 A: The OPP, yes. 23 Q: And you made these notes after that? 24 A: Yes, I would have. 25 Q: And this bundle of notes as well has

1 some of the same drawings that you -- we've looked at 2 just before? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And if you look at this document, the 8 fifth page, that's a -- a copy of the document. 9 That particular drawing came from the 10 notes that you found in the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 11 A: Yes, that's not mine. 12 Q: Then, the sixth page is one (1) of 13 your drawings that we've already looked at? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: The seventh page is, again, one (1) 16 of your drawings that we've already looked at? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: The eighth page is a drawing that is 19 not part of the earlier group of material. 20 Do you know whose drawing that is? 21 A: "Ask SIU for command -- command post 22 reports?" 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yes, that's my handwriting. 25 Q: That's your drawing?

1 A: Yes. It could be in my other book. 2 Q: Actually, it is, it's in -- it's the 3 third page of the other -- drawing is there as well; 4 that's part of Exhibit 318. 5 And, there's a note on that drawing that 6 says, 7 "Two (2) native women on September 8 4/95, while watering plants, overheard 9 police talk to on-fire (phonetic) 10 people and --" 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And these are the two (2) ladies you 13 told us about earlier? 14 A: Yes, I -- I believe that's them. 15 Q: And what was the source of the 16 information that police were talking to "on fire people"? 17 A: They were just -- they said they 18 could -- there's a little building, a little house, that 19 little house right there, and there's a little -- in the 20 back of it, right back there, there's like -- like a 21 little porch; you could stand outside. 22 And that's where they told me they were 23 standing. 24 Q: The two (2) individuals? 25 A: Yes, it's either -- like I can't

1 remember now. I know there's a porch up there on the 2 second floor somewhere. 3 Q: Now, the -- when they say "On-Fire 4 people" they are people they identified as belonging to 5 the group called "On-Fire"? 6 A: I didn't know who "On-Fire" at that 7 time was, I just wrote it down. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, perhaps, 9 actually, I didn't realize, it's 1:15. Perhaps we could 10 break for lunch? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If this is a 12 good time? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Pouget and I just 18 keep on going if -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 20 started late this morning, so it's not too bad. If this 21 is a good time, we'll break for lunch now. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, that's fine. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 24 adjourned until 2:30. 25

1 --- Upon recessing at 1:16 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 2:32 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed, please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. Pouget, we were talking about 11 September 9th and 10th and one (1) of the things that you 12 indicated was that you saw two (2) St. John's Ambulance 13 vans at the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: And did you look in those vans? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And what did you observe inside the 19 vans? 20 A: One (1) van had one (1) foot by one 21 (1) foot square lights. There was maybe half a dozen of 22 them -- 23 Q: Square lights? 24 A: Square lights, yeah, like they're big 25 lights.

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: And I seen a stretcher, a wooden 3 stretcher. Didn't see any first aid supplies, it was 4 actually kind of hollowed out, that van. There wasn't 5 any -- it looked like it was just like a cargo van, there 6 wasn't anything really -- a lot of the stuff was already 7 taken out of it by the time I got to see it. 8 The second van -- 9 Q: Did you go in the first van, did you 10 go into the van? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: So the door was open or -- 13 A: Everything was open, yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Yes? 15 A: Yes, everything was open -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- I looked in the back and the front 18 and the side. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And the second van, I don't know what 21 I -- I seen -- I don't know if they were body bags but 22 they appeared to be bags and like, there must have been 23 about, maybe twenty-six (26), twenty-seven (27) maybe. 24 There was a stack about -- about that high. 25 And when we went the second day, they

1 weren't there, so I don't know what day it was, but they 2 weren't there. A lot of stuff was already gone missing, 3 everything was taken out. 4 Q: So the first day you saw, in the 5 second van, some bags? 6 A: Well, they looked like -- when I 7 worked at Bob-Lo Island Security, I -- I was in the 8 ambulance and I seen body bags that looked like -- I 9 never seen them opened up, but that's what they looked 10 like. 11 Q: So -- but you saw bags, but you 12 didn't open them up and you assumed they were -- 13 A: Yeah, yeah. 14 Q: You've made an assumption -- 15 A: It was an assumption. 16 Q: What else did you see in that -- that 17 van on the -- on September 9th when you were there? 18 A: It looked like in that particular van 19 there was, I think, a square box in the centre and there 20 was, it looked like it might have been a radio, something 21 to do with radios. I can't remember that van. 22 The other van was -- there was police 23 shields, wooden batons -- 24 Q: In the -- 25 A: In the other --

1 Q: -- first van that -- 2 A: Yeah -- 3 Q: -- you -- 4 A: Yeah, but there was two (2) vans and 5 the second van there was police radios -- not police 6 radios, police shields, batons, didn't look like there 7 was anything -- I didn't see any first aid equipment in 8 that -- in that van. 9 Q: And the van that had the police 10 equipment, was it the van that had the stretcher in it? 11 A: It may have been. 12 Q: And when you went back -- and when 13 you went into these -- both of these vans, they were both 14 open? 15 A: Yes, they were. 16 Q: And when you went back the next day, 17 were they -- did -- you said that in the one van, the 18 bags were gone. Was there other -- 19 A: Yes -- 20 Q: -- things gone? 21 A: The bags were gone, the batons were 22 gone, the shields were gone. The second van, it -- with 23 the shields, they had little slots for the shields to go 24 in so they could stand straight up. There was a bunch of 25 little slots for them to stand in.

1 Q: And that was a -- was there a base 2 there that -- 3 A: It was like a wooden -- a wooden rack 4 for them to stand in. 5 Q: And on the second day you were there, 6 they were gone? 7 A: No, the wooden rack was still there-- 8 Q: But the -- 9 A: -- but everything else was gone. 10 Q: Now, you indicated when we were 11 watching the video or at some point earlier this morning, 12 that you observed a cord running from a cottage? 13 A: Yes, from 6767 -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: Actually it wasn't running from the 16 cottage, it was -- there was a spool of cable that could 17 have been running from the cottage. 18 Q: So you -- so it wasn't running from 19 the cottage. What you observed was a spool -- 20 A: A spool of cable, yes. 21 Q: And where did you observe this, sir? 22 A: That would have been on the video, on 23 the second video, there was a -- it looked like a -- like 24 an aerial that was laying down. And it would have been 25 over to -- it was right around that area, because there

1 was another spot there was -- there was a stand, there 2 was a tripod. And it looked like something fit on top of 3 it with a little lip on the bottom, and it -- it -- it 4 looked like something was -- was maybe some kind of 5 communication there. 6 Q: But -- so the cable that you saw was 7 not running anywhere, it was simply by 6767 and this 8 tripod? 9 A: Actually, that was about -- it would 10 have been about, maybe, forty (40), 50 feet away from the 11 fifth wheel itself. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: The cable, and the tripod and that -- 14 that looked like an antenna that was laying down or 15 something. 16 Q: So, the antenna, tripod and the cable 17 were about 50 feet away from the St. John's Ambulance 18 trailer, but -- and was the cable running anywhere? 19 A: The cable was running right to the 20 St. John -- the fifth wheel itself, the St. John's -- 21 Q: It ran to the -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- St. John's Ambulance trailer? 24 Okay, now, during this period of time the -- what else 25 were you doing? September 9th, 10th?

1 A: September 9th we were running low on 2 batteries, we were running low on film and -- or High 8 3 tape, that's what Ted needed, and I -- I had to make a 4 trip into town. 5 Q: And "into town" is Forest? 6 A: Forest, yes. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: We went to -- I don't know, it's not 9 a Black's, it's right on the main drag, past the bank, 10 the Royal Bank down here, Fuji, green. It was Fuji, and 11 we went in there, bought some High 8 tape -- I went in 12 there and bought some High 8 tape. 13 I got a ride from somebody from the Army 14 Camp and on the way into town, well, there was a large 15 police buildup. We got pulled over and they let us go, 16 but I seen -- in the back here, I seen a APC. 17 Q: And an APC is what? 18 A: An armoured personnel carrier. 19 Q: And whereabouts did you see this? 20 A: It was in the back in -- in the arena 21 somewhere. It was -- I could only see half of it; it was 22 just sticking out. 23 Q: Were you -- now, where were you 24 driving? 25 A: I was coming from Highway 21 and

1 actually, this store wasn't as big as it is now, the IGA 2 right here on the corner. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: And I could see it from over on this 5 side as we were coming in to town. 6 Q: So, you were -- you were travelling 7 on Highway 21, towards Townsend Road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And over on, I guess it would be 10 north of the highway, or at least towards Kimball Hall, 11 you observed what you thought was an APC? 12 A: It was a six (6) wheeled APC. 13 Q: But how -- how much of it could you 14 see? 15 A: I could see -- I could see the two 16 (2) back wheels and I've seen APC's before, so I -- I 17 kind of -- it was an APC. 18 Q: You knew what an APC was? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And that was on September the 9th? 21 A: September the 9th. 22 Q: Now, I note on your notes that on 23 September 14th, 15th and -- you -- you have a note: 24 "Waiting for SIU" 25 And what's that refer to, you were waiting

1 for the SIU to come? 2